ven though it was comic-book creator Masamune Shirow's name that was plastered vibrantly across the advertising for the first Ghost in the Shell, Mamoru Oshii was the filmmaker who quietly triumphed with this, one of the first anime films to successfully cross over to a mainstream Western audience. Oshii, who re-imagined Shirow's source material for the big screen, went on to international acclaim, and oversaw the completion of a long-delayed but highly anticipated sequel called Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence.
The second film begins soon after the last one ended, with Batou returning to the world of detective work only to find a new and potentially destructive thread working its way into the human race: the evolution of robots as companions rather than just manservants, and the seemingly indistinguishable differences between these man-made devices and their supposed masters. Oshii recently spoke to Science Fiction Weekly about the development of this forthcoming sequel, the nine-year road to getting it made and transcending cultural borders to impress the film's messages upon a world audience rather than that of a single society.
Why did it take nine years to make a sequel to Ghost in the Shell?
Oshii: It took only three years, as far as the actual production was concerned. I have been involved in a lot of different projects since the first Ghost in the Shell; I've been involved in one live-action film, and also another anime, and also another project which actually didn't happen, unfortunately, so those were three years lost. Many people in Japan asked the same question and were complaining he wasn't working for a long time, but he was actually working hard.
How difficult was it to return to the characters from the first film, and what were the challenges of creating a new story?
Oshii: I actually think it's good that it has been a while since the first film was made, and I don't think it could have been done if it was right after the first movie. That time between the two movies has made it a completely different movie, and that's what made it possible [to make].
What technological advances made this film easier to make that its predecessor?
Oshii: There wasn't a single thing that has been easier as a result of a technological advancement. All of the animation techniques that have arisen [since GITS] have added to the amount of work. Animators have this tendency of always doing the best they can, and with digital technology, they could keep repeating [the level of quality]. Actually, what happened was, they had done a scene 10 times more [carefully] than they did with the last movie, but it actually translated into me having to check 10 times more carefully with the material than I did on the last one. When I made the first movie, it took overnight to render one scene, but now they have a lot more materials to render, but each person actually has two or three computers working at the same time, so that also added to the amount of the work. Digitalization didn't actually lessen the amount of work.
How did you decide what would be done digitally and what would be hand-drawn?
Oshii: Whether it's background material or the characters, the source material has been hand-drawn. Whatever is the process of putting one picture over another, any combination is possible now, so the source material itself has increased tenfold. Most of the [textures] were done at the source, hand-drawn, so if he had used all of the textures that came with the software, then the film would have looked the same as other films. That's my credo—that textures should be done at the source by hand. That also applies to live-action filmmaking as well.
There has been a lot of discussion about the role GITS played in the development of the Matrix films' universe and imagery. Did those films influence you in any way during the development of GITS 2?
Oshii: A lot of people have brought up the same question, but I consider The Matrix to be a completely different movie from Ghost in the Shell. There are some similarities in the visuals, and also the filmmaking to some extent is similar, but to me they are two completely different movies, but it doesn't bother me [laughs]. I don't really think it's about who stole what from whom, but there was a time when Japanese animation borrowed a lot from American filmmaking, so it's a mutual relationship. There was a time in Japan when every anime movie borrowed from 2001: A Space Odyssey or Blade Runner or The Terminator, and there has to be a certain time when people copy somebody. When [that inspiration] becomes the norm, then the whole world is ready for the next step of making something of their own. That's what I think any kind of creation is like.
Do you prefer isolating yourself from potential influences or trying to cull as many together as possible?
Oshii: If it's about choosing between the two, or choosing the right one, there is no answer. It's really up to each person, but I actually don't see movies when they come out in the theater. I'll see them only when they come to video these days, not only because I'm very busy, but also because it takes a couple of years for the movies' reputations and the people's perceptions of a film to be fixed. There are so few films that stand the test of time, of even two or three years.
What did you specifically want to accomplish by making the sequel?
Oshii: I was convinced about the outcome of this film when I visited a museum in New York, the International Center of Photography, where they exhibit the dolls made by Hans Bellmer. Those are the dolls depicted in the movie. Those dolls were made by [Bellmer] about 50 years ago, and I based the idea of the gynoids [pleasure robots] on those dolls. Those dolls are famous for the balls they have for [arm and leg] joints, and are so beautiful.
You seem to have a certain kind of noir influence in the film as well.
Oshii: The Long Goodbye was actually my origin for the film, and Chinatown, by Roman Polanski. I'm also aware of the hard-boiled movies, and I think those hard-boiled elements are just essential. I cannot make a film without those [elements].
How tough is it to infuse humanity in characters that are not only created with technology, but who live in worlds that exist in an electronic age?
Oshii: Without the existence of the dog that the protagonist keeps in his apartment, that world really would have been too inhuman.
Do you feel like this future you prophesy in these films is pessimistic or optimistic?
Oshii: The future I describe in the movies is actually not the future. It's the present, so if the future in the movies looks very dark and very sad, unfortunately, that's the way our present is.
Are there any lessons that you are concerned that international audiences might not understand due to cultural differences between Japan and the rest of the world?
Oshii: In terms of translating from one culture to another, I grew up reading European [literature]—mostly the Bible—and it wasn't until recently, when he finished making this film, that he realized he was really Japanese. The culture of your life and the culture of your movie are two different things, and after completing this movie, I felt like I was [definitively] Japanese, but the elements in the film, if you have to put a finger on them, were probably more European than American, and more European than Japanese, but the making of this film made me realize I am Japanese. For those filmmakers who originally came from Europe or Hong Kong or other parts of the world and made it in Hollywood, their nationalities may have been something other than that of the U.S., but the nationality of their films are definitely [American]. The film gives us a nationality of its own, in one way.
So what message do you specifically want to convey with this movie?
Oshii: The message of this movie is your body. As I got older, nowadays I make a film that is good for my body, but before that I used to make a film only using my brain.
When I made the first Ghost in the Shell, I thought about what really makes your body your body. If you lose your arm, and you keep losing body parts, what is the last part that still makes you unique? The conclusion I came to at the time was your brain, and more specifically, your memory of life.
When I made Ghost in the Shell 2, my conclusion changed. This time I thought it's your body, and it's not anything specific, like your arm or your leg, it's the body as an entire [entity], and more than that, it's really the relationships you have with other people. When I was making this film, I came to one conclusion: Maybe the brain or head isn't that special. Traditionally in Japan, the brain isn't that important; if you are accused of something and you are executed for it, that's when you lose your head. But when you go and take the responsibility voluntarily, more honorably, that's when you do hara-kiri and cut your body. I think it's representative of the fact that you cannot actually "sever" your body.
This was your first anime movie in nine years. How long will we have to wait until you do another one, whether it's Ghost in the Shell 3 or some other project?
Oshii: To be honest, right after finishing one animated film, which is really exhausting both spiritually and physically, I don't feel like making more anime at all [laughs]. That's why I've alternated between animation and live action in the past, but I didn't film two live-action films back to back either. So if the next anime film happens realistically, I think it will be five or six years later.
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Also in this issue:
The cast and crew of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
and
J.J. Abrams, creator of Lost
